Round 7: Is Carmelo Anthony an Elite Level Player?

Back in March, as a kind of experiment to see just how juiced I could get in head to head combat with a Carmelo Anthony detractor, I was a guest critic on the blog of David Friedman, a very experienced basketball commentator whose mega blog is 20secondtimeout.blogspot.com. I bring this heated debate back to (1)Get us through the dog days of the off-season and (2)To partly make up for me being bogged down in a huge real estate project, which is keeping me away from Nuggets 1 lately.

Enjoy the fight. Here is round 7:

at 10:45 PM, David Friedman said...

DAVID FRIEDMAN:

The whole issue of the different rating systems probably does not matter that much regarding our discussion of Melo, because we each basically rank him in the same general area--you just call 15-20 "elite," while I do not. My point with the example of the NBA's efficiency rating is that the numbers can be juggled to say almost anything that you want them to say. Numbers are important but they have to be provided with context. Linear weights systems like the one you use are probably the least compelling, all the more so when you selectively leave out categories.

What is the point of using a word like "elite" and then diluting it? It could be said that every NBA player is "elite" because just about anybody who is in the NBA could walk into most gyms in this country and dominate; NBA players are the best 400 or so basketball players in the world. Look at the Indy 500--those are 33 of the best open wheel drivers in the world, but I don't think anyone would call the person who finishes 20th elite. Is there some prize or award for being the 19th best player in the NBA? If you are a top five pick and after three years you are the 19th best player, is that good?

I brushed off your MJ hypothetical because it is not relevant and assumes too many facts that are not in evidence. The reality is that MJ went to a bad team and ultimately won six titles. Before he did that, he took his team to the playoffs and set postseason scoring records. If MJ went to the Grizzlies and was not only the league's best scorer but the league's best perimeter defender then, yes, I would have considered him elite. What does any of this have to do with Melo and his horrible playoff numbers?

Whether or not you "expect" Melo to do better in the playoffs does not make him an elite player now. I can't base my evaluations on your expectations. Anyway, how could he do worse than 18 ppg and 36% shooting? He has the ball in his hands all the time, so unless he gets hurt he's going to score 18 ppg just by being on the court.

T-Mac is an elite player. Kidd is an elite player. The rest of your list, I say no. Boozer and Arenas will probably get MVP votes and might be on other people's "elite" lists. Marion's a maybe. Bosh and Howard are up and coming, could definitely become elite players soon. Okafor's not even an All-Star.

Camby's job is not to shoot as accurately as Yao and the others. He is a shotblocker/rebounder who has a reliable top of the key jump shot.

If Boston and the other teams turn around whether or not I am "amazed" will depend on the circumstances--which players they acquire in the draft, through trades, etc. Going from 18 to 43 wins by adding a lottery pick, a quality starting point guard and a quality starting center is hardly "amazing." Give Miller credit for 8 games at least, Camby another 8 and Melo credit for 9. If you want to go crazy, give Melo credit for 15--that is not "amazing" for a lottery pick; that is expected.

I'd take Iverson over Melo if we are talking purely about skills and not age, contract, etc. Iverson has shown that he can lead a team to the Finals--and that team hardly had a lot of offensive weapons. Although he gambles a lot, his defense is better than Melo's because at least he gets some steals and causes some disruption.

I don't understand why you pin all of Denver's problems on Najera. The guy is a role player who plays his role. All championship teams have guys like that. Denver is not a great team because they do not have an elite player like most of the great teams do. Let's look at the standings: Dallas has Dirk; San Antonio has Duncan; Phx has Nash, with Marion and Amare close to elite if not actually elite; Utah has two All-Stars in Boozer and Okur and a top point guard in Deron Williams; the Lakers have Kobe. Denver has Melo and Iverson but not as many wins as those other teams. Melo is not as good as the best player on any of those teams and, in my opinion, not as good as the second best player on some of those teams.

Who cares what the Wolves were supposed to do four years ago? Denver was "supposed" to win the division this year and has been one of the biggest disappointments in the West, right there with the Clippers. And why have they been a disappointment? Because Melo plays no defense, holds the ball on offense and had to miss 15 games because he wanted to prove how tough he is by punching a guy who was already being restrained.

You let me know when Walton or anyone else with a shred of credibility says anything other than that Duncan is an elite player. He, LeBron and Shaq all have free throw line issues but I have yet to hear anyone who knows what they're talking about not list them among the league's best players.

The whole census/sociology diatribe misses the point. You know absolutely nothing about LeBron's personal background or you would have mentioned it by now. Furthermore, none of this is relevant. LeBron is a better basketball player than Melo. It's not even close at this point. Melo is a highly paid professional and cannot use his background as an excuse/justification for doing something that is wrong, nor can anyone else.

Stern placing Melo on the All-Star team had nothing to do with the incident or forgiveness; Melo was the logical choice after seemingly half of the West's players got hurt. Notice that neither the fans nor the coaches voted Melo in, again--and I doubt that any of them were looking at census figures. All they have to do is watch the games.

Melo went to Syracuse, won a national title and was a lottery pick. How exactly has his background held him back? If you can play, scouts will find you anywhere, you will be drafted and you will even get multiple chances to fail (Ron Artest, Latrell Sprewell, etc.). Melo's reputation has gone down, not up, since he came into the NBA and it has nothing to do with Baltimore. He came into the league as an NCAA champion but has not played like a championship player.

Sheed felt that Z had fouled him previously, so when Z drove to the hoop he elbowed him in the head, opening up a huge gash that required stitches. Sheed was called for a flagrant foul immediately and the NBA later upgraded it to a flagrant foul two.

If a team ranks fourth in scoring and fourth worst is defense and has a sub .500 record it is very obvious why that team is losing--and it is not because of Najera.

At 3:31 PM, Nuggets 1 said...

NUGGETS 1:

Melo reduced his shots and increased his rebounding and assists, and the result has been that the Nuggets have turned from being a winning team to a losing team. The Nuggets were 13-9 when Melo was shooting by instinct and without any limitations from the coach and all the outside critics such as Mr. David Friedman. Since Melo returned from the suspension, the Nuggets are 15-19. Since the all-star break, and with George Karl's and David Friedman's recommendations in place,the Nuggets are only 9-11. Oops, I think a few folks miscalculated and underestimated the importance of Melo's scoring for the Nuggets.

More installments are coming, to be followed by a new comment by me regarding Melo's coming of age playoff series, and how those like Mr. David Friedman now have to update their views.